conference in his visit with his brother in the united states of america. we honor his memory and hundreds of others by calling for space change in syria. we know that our allies across the arab league and in turkey as i raised before the first panel have a unique and critical role to pressure mr. assad. the economic ties with syria that the united states does not have. i support the efforts to leverage the relationships for a comprehensive regional approach to the crisis and what our allies who have rejected the regime. in addition to strong messages from washington and a concerted diplomatic push, more can be done to pressure syria at international bodies. we need to maintain pressure on

syria, the united nations human rights council. we should also continue to pursue a resolution at the u.n. security council condemning the syrian government's. on monday of this week germany called for the security council meeting on syria, which i hope will result in a strong resolution. but some security council members remain resistant. especially in the wake of recent violence, it is unacceptable for the united nations to continue ignoring the courage of the syrian people and the carnage that it brought about by the syrian regime. we must also continue to pursue efforts to the ability of this regime to conduct business abroad. i welcome the new european union's sanctions on syria this year which impose asset freezes and travel bans on five more military and government

officials. with us also be willing to examine expanded sanctions on the banking and energy sectors. i also want to applaud the courageous work on by our diplomats in damascus led by robert ford, who is with us today. ambassador ford's recent trip was a testament to his commitment to representing the interest and the values of the united states. due to the draconian measures imposed on the media by the regime, the ambassador ford has been one of the few people whose travel within syria for the truth of a terrible crime taking place across the country. president obama was right to send ambassador ford to syria last year. i look forward to supporting his confirmation when it comes before the full senate. mr. ford has shown an american ambassador is not a gift to host countries, but a representative who actively pursues american interest in american values, the

most basic american value, the right to space representation is at stake in syria, and much more of course is at stake, and i know that ambassador ford has been a stalwart advocate for this principal of space representation while he has served in damascus. ambassador four, welcome back to the senate foreign relations committee. i know this is your second welcome today. but i think you for your decades, decades of service and remarkable efforts you and your team have undertaken in damascus, and i look forward to the answer that you will provide to the questions. i wanted to open up with just an assessment, your assessment of the violence and the current state of not just the violence and the scale of it, but also what you can tell us about the opposition and how they are

doing and how we can be most effective and most helpful meaning the united states congress. >> thank you very much, senator. it's nice to see you again. first, if i may, i'm very fortunate to work with a small but very dedicated team at the u.s. embassy in damascus, both americans and syrians coming and one of my team is here. she actually interrupted her vacation to help me during these few days of meetings i had in washington so i would like to introduce joann cummings. joann works on economic and political issues in damascus. she lives in damascus without her husband who was evacuated because of the deteriorating security situation of our american staff lived there without their families, and it is a really super team and it is

a team effort. >> thank you as well. >> cementer, with respect to the violence getting worse, the syrian government's constant brutality, its refusal to allow peaceful merchants, its insistence on widespread unrest campaigns and it's atrocious torture the reports you read about the detention conditions are just ghastly, they are in turn foster and more violence. we saw that in the homes two weeks ago. we are seeing it this weekend, too, i think, but i want to be clear. i visited on a government sponsored trip in june. i heard what they said and i wandered away from the crowd and talked to some other people and it was clear what happened up there. there was a peaceful protest on friday, the syrian security

forces shot some of the protesters at the fuel on saturday the next saturday. the people got quite emotional because they get lost loved ones, and they then attacked and killed a lot of syrian security people. that paradigm, that cycle is repeated over and over again. the cycle starts with of the syrian government violence against peaceful protests. we need to be very clear the syrian government was saying there are armed groups. i went there, i didn't see a single gun. the most dangerous weapon that i saw was a slingshot. we need to be clear about what the nature of the violence is and where it comes from. the responsibility lies with the president assad and his government, and let me again reiterate the call by the president on july 31st the

secretary yesterday, the syrian government needs to stop that. would you like me to discuss briefly the opposition? >> yes, thank you. >> i spent a fair amount of my time getting to know them inside syria. the secretary today met a group of syrian opposition members that are living outside of syria and i was able to join that meeting as well. a couple of things i would say it is a diverse group. they are not very well-organized. that is not surprising. the syrian government for decades would not allow any opposition party to exist, much less meat or much less organized. they are trying to do that now. very frankly they have a long way to go. it is important for the syrian opposition to develop their ideas, syrian ideas, about how

the space transition in syria, which we think is under way, as i sit in my opening statement, the protests are growing. the space transition is under way. the syrian opposition needs to identify how that transition should proceed. that should not be an american responsibility. this is a syrian issue they should decide. how about if i hold there, senator? >> thank you very much. and i know that americans are outraged by this violence, but i am afraid that when you open up the newspaper day after day and it is in the context of instability and a lot of places a lot of change in the middle east it might be the level of outrage might be more muted because it is in the context of

so much other news and change in the region. it's always a region of a lot of volatility as you know better than on, but lately it has been that much more difficult. so i think it is difficult sometimes for many americans to sustain their focus, but it is my opinion that not only should mr. assad stepped down, but he should stop trying to deliberately mislead the world where his forces engaging in acts of violence and then it seems it's always followed by some fraudulent promise they are going to reform and that cycle gets repeated as well. how about -- and i know part of the input and insurers to develop a broad coalition of nations, governments to support us, and i know we are trying to

get an even broader coalition, and one of the challenges we have is engaging russia and china, and they are two of the most vocal opponents. i don't know why. i can understand, i don't agree with it, but we have to acknowledge it. they are two of the most vocal opponents against any kind of resolution the security council. what can you tell us about efforts to engage their and with the latest is? >> senator, they're have been intense discussions today up and new york about some kind of u.n. security council action. my understanding from the colleagues of being new york a couple of hours ago was the most recent syrian government repressive measures in places like the east and in the west

have had an impact, and the members of the security council who had opposed the security council action are potentially now more open to some kind of action. discussions are underway to get my understanding is even as we speak here, we think it is important, i want to underline this, we think it is important that the united nations security council take action. we feel it's important the international community recognized the courage and the efforts of the syrian people to effect change to push for freedom and dignity and that the international community should support them. >> one of the challenges we have, when i mentioned that sometimes it's hard for americans to sustain a focus even violence at this level and the kind of brutality, one of

the limitations we have is not just the confluence of a lot of events that interfere or pretend that focus from being intensified. of one of the challenges we have is a lack of information because of the syrian government ability to sense your information. i spoke earlier of the estimates of the number killed, but even beyond just that number, which we are never sure is accurate, are there -- you obviously have concerns about this, but let me ask, are there ways that we can circumvent or get around the sensors that are in place now, the ability of the government to present the free flow of information?

>> center, one of the topics device had in my discussions with officials of the syrian government the last several months is the importance of allowing international media. i do not know how many times i've raised that with the foreign minister, with my foreign minister of close advisers to the president assad himself. the syrians have a refrain which i hear all the time which is the media coverage is unfair to which i have told them well, then you need to have the media come in and look at it and let them draw their own judgment. i will say that after my last conversation about that, cnn was invited in the national public radio amos was invited and we got a couple of british news agencies. they were still kind of tracked and monitored in the country. they didn't have nearly the kind of freedom i would have liked to have seen that we would have liked to have seen, npr just got

back again, but you are right the censorship is a huge problem, and one of the reasons that i have moved around the country is to get the sense myself of what is going on. it's terribly frustrating to not really a understand. you can watch the youtube videos. there's a certain utility for having their own eyes to see things. i've been encouraging my colleague ambassadors in damascus to get out of damascus and some were quite active, the french ambassador for example. we need to help the syrian people themselves, the activists to make the best use of technology and they can use the internet to get the word out and

quite ingenious doing this. in fact, colleagues of mine at the embassy tell me that the syrians understand a lot of the internet and such things better than some of us do, so there's a lot of ingenuity there, senator, but the fundamental problem is the syrian government will not allow the free flow of information, and that should stop. >> in some ways that's the way that i would make a determination about legitimacy. that's one of the measurements. if you are not allowing the free flow of information at a minimum questions arise about the implications of that. i want to return -- cementer ask before about the opposition here in the four tax has people in

washington, but to the extent you can step back a little bit and provide a perspective based on recent events, one of the most, in on my opinion, one of the most significant factors in how the transition took place in egypt for example was the fact that you have a military which showed some measure in some measure of forbearance and you have a number of folks in the ruling elite who also showed some forbearance or at least were measured in the way they responded, and that allowed the kind of transition which compared to some other places we might not be coping with replicate itself.

and syria is there any element within the government at high level within the government or with them the leadership of the military where you see some even unrealized potential up this point for some balance and maybe even some forbearance where they might not cross a certain boundary or some at the top in essence saying this has gone too far we have to replace stop and pause, not expecting anyone at the highest levels to agree with me about mr. assad stepping down, but is there any potential for some of the highest military leadership to show that for parents at some point in the near term? >> senator, i'm going to be very frank. i've heard from a number of officials in damascus messages of good intent.

i have to tell you that what matters is change on the ground it to the shooting of peaceful protesters and and to the swedes were hundreds of young people are rounded up without any kind of process and held for months often in the barbaric conditions as the release of political prisoners, still political prisoners. change on the ground and the messages of good intent and when i come back and say what about changing this and changing the face today or tomorrow i don't get much backed. a few things here and there, senator, but not for a much. and our conclusion is that this regime is unwilling or unable to lead the democratic transition that the syrian people are demanding now.

and in a sense unwilling or unable doesn't really matter because what we are interested in is the syrian people are interested in the international community is interested in is that change on the ground. the positive change on the ground, and the incidence of the past few days leading up to ramadan and the start of the month show that there is no popular change on the ground for. >> i was afraid your answer would be very much the way you just articulate it and i think if anything, that should be testimony that equates to exhibit a to maintain pressure and think of other ways to provide or impose greater pressure by developing and strengthening alliances through engagement and through efforts that are made in the way of sanctions might cents and you

just confirm it is this is of a regime that is going to get tired doing this unless they have a countervailing force against them that will make them change. i guess i want to export some of those other pressure points. there are some commentators with a significant degree of experience who think that we should be turning up more pressure imposing economic pressure by way of the energy sector. i wanted to get your thoughts on that in terms of a -- another approach. >> senator, but as an excellent question. on the energy sector, we have for years had sanctions against

american companies doing business there and so, unilaterally additional american measures unilaterally probably are not going to have that big of an impact. the big companies that are working in the syrian energy petroleum oil and gas sector right now are mostly european and canadian so we would look to find ways to work with our partners to enhance those sanctions and we have had discussions about that and that's under way. european and canadians are watching what is going on and syria and the syrian government's latest actions will help trigger actions frankly speaking. >> a lot of what drives the change can be rooted in

economics how would you assess the syrian economy prior to the beginning of this year versus the way it looks now in terms of its citizens as an issue in this conflict? >> the violence and the unrest and lack of stability is hurting the syrian economy. a start off slow but it is snowballing. let me give you just a couple examples. tourism represented a part of the economy, the sector is completely dead. the hotels in places like damascus which normally would have occupants of 80 or 90% are down to zero to 10% right now. hotels are laying off the staff.

the country is draining slowly but steadily. its foreign-exchange reserves. >> throughout the economy slowed dramatically whether it be production of pharmaceuticals or textiles, whatever it is. the demand among the syrian consumers has dropped off the table. people are afraid to buy because the times are so unsettled. companies are really hurting. banks are also hurting. joann just did a very good assessment to the financial sector in the way that it is suffering because of the current situation. one of the things we are trying to do, senator, and this is quite important, joanne and i both worked in iraq. we do not want our sanctions to devastate the broad syrian economy because of the period after a and a strong economy

will be part of that so we have worked in the united states government and partners against the company's against individuals in the oppression. without targeting and making the people of serious offer it is a different kind of sanctions regime from what we had an iraq. it's much more specifically targeted with the goal of sparing the people themselves great suffering. >> i know that is always the challenge to make it such sanctions target enough and impact salinas on the regime. i know that we have seen as often happens in the situation we have seen the migration most

of it or the majority of folks the northwestern syria into turkey, any reports you can get on that and a related question may be the bigger question of role how do you assess the role played by syria and what more do you hope -- the turkish government, what role can the turkish government play in creating more pressure and more impact on the syrian regime. >> first, senator, may i follow the part of an economic sanction, and the challenge of

getting targeting works we do spend a lot of time on this. let me just give you a couple success stories that may not have made the news here. one of the president's cousins is very well-known in syria and is probably the richest man and syria. he is a very unscrupulous businessman and we have targeted him with companies and he helps finance he applied for citizenship to cite this. he didn't get it because working with of the e.u. we made sure he couldn't get the citizenship. that's strike one against him. strike number two, one of the biggest companies is called sham

holdings we targeted that specifically. there was a board of directors we went after a couple of them specifically. the board members term expired at the end of april, and they were too afraid to have another board meeting. so they finally, the government insisted the business come together and have a board meeting in july and all they were able to do was come up with half of the board and one vice chairman. no one would even agree to be the chairman of the sham holding. so the sanctions do bite maybe not in ways that are on the headlines but what we do see is more and more business people and especially which is an important pillar of the regime support we do see them slowly but surely shifting sizes so i do think our sanctions are having an impact. with respect them, senator, to

the question about refugees going into turkey and the traditional more generally we appreciate the turks did offer refuge to people fleeing the government of syria can pants in northwestern syria. people fled in the thousands we estimate around 12,000 said mainly because they were terrified of army and syrian intelligence service retaliation against them. the army and especially, especially the intelligence have a fearsome reputation it will give seen plenty of videos on arabic satellite tv about how they beat and tortured people and some were quite gruesome so people fled in fear and that is what happened in the town i visited up in the north in june.

so we appreciate the role of the turks are pleading and my understanding now is that some refugees who went to turkey are beginning to trickle back into syria. they will be saved. the syrian red crescent has extended promises they will watch over people coming back into the there is not mistreatment. i think most of the refugees are still in turkey and some are around 8,000 still. so plenty of people are still afraid and don't trust their own government and syria. and the turkish rule on this has been i think very good, and we appreciate it. >> with respect to the question more broadly about what can turkey do, i think turkey has a very, very important role, and i often in touch with my colleague, the ambassador ungra. the turks have a very deep commercial relationship that

they have been building for years. they have personal relations between the turkish leadership and the syrian leadership that they have consciously fostered. they wanted to build for. i think it is fair to say that the turks even yesterday was very critical of the latest series of measures the turks have perhaps a unique capability both to talk to the syrians at several levels because over the years they've built of those contacts, and also for the to adopt sanctions, for example, i think those would bite. >> well, that's something i hope we can continue to foster because that kind of help in the region could be very significant. i was in the region last july of

2010 and one of our -- second to last was in lebanon and i could send and feel the presence of hezbollah in lebanon and i want to get your sense about the implications of the unrest and to the violence and syria and implications for lebanon and how hezbollah responded to that. >> senator, when i appeared before the foreign relations committee in march of 2010, we spoke a long time about hezbollah i recall. we have a real opportunity with change in syria to see both of iranian influence in hezbollah

influence diminished. that would be a real game for us. it will also be a gain for the syrian people since the iranians are helping right now with of the repression and syria. with respect to hezbollah specifically, the support to hezbollah has continued. it hasn't stopped. at the same time, i think the leadership of hezbollah at first was outspoken in its support of the government more recently the have been quite, and my sense is they have seen the enough flags burn in a serious to the cup syrian protests like dora they realize their support for the syrian government is not garnering them in any long-term friendship with the syrian

people. >> can you explain that, just walk through that in terms -- stat the protesters and the syrians marginally understand that iran and hezbollah were supporting the syrian government repression against them. >> and i know that when you were getting out of damascus and i think with a lot of valor in a lot of commitment bearing witness to the truth, when you made the journey i know that it had to be in some ways herring -- harrowing what did you draw from it? i know that you saw a better sense of what was happening on the ground, but what did you draw from that other than i

guess what has to be remarkable inspiration when you draw upon that inspiration provided by fees' brave people? what else can you tell us about that? that journey that you took? >> it was a fascinating experience. i've had a lot of interesting trips during my time in the foreign service, but that one would rank near the top. i came away with a couple of conclusions, which i shared with the department of state and also with the media. first of all, the protestors are peaceful as i think i mentioned one with and i saw was a slingshot. these are not the gunman. when we came up to the first checkpoint very frankly, the local checkpoint, not the gunman check point, we were not sure they were going to be armed or not and we were nervous, but the second point i came away with

was the are not against foreigners. we told them they were american diplomats and they said a great comic ahead. we got kind of lost. we should have had a map, but we didn't. as we had to stop and ask for directions, and they actually got in the car and took us where we wanted to go. they were very nice and invited us to lunch, etc.. they are not anti-american at all in fact i think the appreciated the attention that the united states showed to their cause and they were peaceful. they asked who i was and i said i'm the american ambassador to read several of them said, on. they didn't believe me until i gave them a business card. and the third thing i came away with, senator, is the incredible commitment, and i get that whenever i meet opposition people in any city in syria. the commitment they have to change and freedom and